Wanted: Established Members Area

[-=Xploitz=-]

Sometimes, peoples intentions are not clear enough for us to judge. Thats when we must make a choice to help or not. But I've found that by going with your "gut instincts" that you get from certain people is usually correct. ;) Whether or not the person is using the info we give them in a malicious way is ALWAYS a highly possibility....but, we must ultimately make the decision to help or not. I don't always feel comfortable giving certain people even a default router password list, but I sometimes chose to. Does that mean that I'm condoning illegal behavior?? Of course not...however we MUST BE CAREFUL in choosing what information we wish to disclose to these people. Especially the n00bs and the guests, whose intentions are not yet clear. I'd like to see an "ESTABLISHED MEMBERS AREA" where the seniors and other well known members of this board can talk more freely about certain controversial security topics without the "GENERAL PUBLIC" being able to see what we discuss. Preferably an area protected by in which your given "Class/ or Title " would allow you access as opposed to an password protected entry which could easily be brute forced. Is this to much to ask for? I personally think it is an excellent idea that should be given serious thought. Some us us have potentially volatile information that could also aide so called "White Hats" in closing security holes, as well as in retrospect ...some of us have the same info which can be used for personal gain and or for mischief....I have, and I would love to trade my dictionary word list...proxy list...special security tools...etc with other certain members of this forum, but I fear that they would fall into the wrong hands if I publicly post them. And I don't feel that this "Established Members Area" would hurt the reputation of others who cant get in. Worst case scenario....it would prevent certain individuals and potential "black hats" or "kiddie scriptors " from gaining access to knowledge that could aide them....now is that such a bad thing?? Hurting the feelings of black hats and some kiddie scriptors?? I think not. If anyone else agrees with me, please speak up. The more people who post positive responses, the better the chances we have of accomplishing our goal of keeping backtrack free from being exploited by un-user friendly people....and keeping our shared knowledge from falling into the "wrong hands". Thank you for your time, and for taking this subject seriously.

[shamanvirtuel]

surely im agree............

kind of collaborative works could be very effective....

ie maybe for BT3 development, could be the best thing, no ?

hope dear Mother, you can see this post......

[-=Xploitz=-]

surely im agree............

kind of collaborative works could be very effective....

ie maybe for BT3 development, could be the best thing, no ?

hope dear Mother, you can see this post......

I completely agree that it would be of in best interest of this community, and that of future development of Backtrack 3. Yes, I hope as well that my message doesn't fall upon deaf ears and our voices will be heard.

[pureh@te]

CITIZENS UNITE


natuarly I agree with my fellows. So maby Its a question of whether v bulliten can host such a add on. The only input I have is that if we request such a thing we should be willing to cough up some cash to who ever is paying to keep this forum alive. POWER TO THE PEOPLE hahahahaah

[theprez98]

Just to play devil's advocate, a few questions:

--Who decides who is "established" enough to be a "member"? A majority of the "already established members"? Voting? Vetoes? I'm not sure I'd want to go down that road.

--Do we ever really know people's motivations (good or bad)? All we have is a few lines of text on a forum.

--Will the "established members area" really prevent "black hats" or "script kiddies" from finding the information they really want, considering it is readily available elsewhere and on other forums (i.e., milw0rm)?

In the end, I think the restricting of information (whether that information is good or bad) to a select few "established members" (whether I would be one or not) is anathema to the hacker culture and ethic.

Script kiddies and malicious users will weed themselves out by their reputations. I really don't think we need to set up further distinctions which may only serve to prevent legitimate, well-intentioned newbies from learning something new.

I recommend leaving the entire forum wide-open, although some more aggressive moderation could help. ;)

[Mother]

I will talk this through internally and see what could be done. In any case, it would only take determination to 'infiltrate' this sort-of-private subforum, and we cannot be checking everyone's identity, normal moderation as it is takes a lot of time.

BTW please do NOT use bold, size, etc. for no reason, it makes posts look really bad, hard to read, and basically childish. Use red or bold for emphasis when it's needed, but that's usually a couple of words only. The huge blue signature is also rather awful to look at IMHO....

[Spyder_Snyper]

Even though I'm new to this forum and community, I'm far from new to security. Although, I have need working as an admin instead of a hacker.

After reading up here and checking out what is available, it looks like I've always been a step behind possible attacks. I've even found some that, as an admin, I was totally unaware of...

So what about an entirely seperate forum altogether? We could have the 'General BT Forum', and the 'Established Members Forum'.

And in all honesty Mother, no matter what we do, the script kiddies and black hats can inevitably find the information we would share on the internet. And yeah, hacking the site is a definite possibility. What we would wind up doing though, is creating that extra layer of work. Work that many might not go through. It's just to prevent that easy, casual access to this info...

At least that's the case for MHO...

[pureh@te]

After hearing the other members views I'm now on the fence. What I would like to know from the administator {i.e. MOTHER} is some xcact guide lines for talking about contrversial topics. Of course I know the forum rules but what I dont understand why its taboo to talk about ilegal behavior. I mean is there some sort of international internet law that Im unaware of because in the us such things are protected by the first admendment. I mean I can get the plans for a pipe bomb or the formula for anthrax {i'm assuming this i dont really know} but its only ilegal if i posses it or use it. So lets a t least have the guide lines clear. we can always PM each other or Email. Im not afraid to give out my email. wouldnt do you any good to hack it any way. Im boring.

Just a after thought- on the milw0rm forums my first few posts had to be approved by a moderator before being posted. We could apoint a few people for the task of filtering out "I wanna hack my girlfriends wireless, break into her myspace acount and find out who she's doing and then i wanna hack him too" requests. I seriously got a pm that said this on another forum

[-=Xploitz=-]

--Who decides who is "established" enough to be a "member"? A majority of the "already established members"? Voting? Vetoes?

This is the tricky part...I'd go with the seniors and admin/moderators all vote on who gets in. The seniors like myself purehate, shamanvirtuel, theprez will have to be voted in as well..no exceptions..only the admins and mods and seniors who are already members can vote.

--Do we ever really know people's motivations (good or bad)? All we have is a few lines of text on a forum.

And thats why we must vote carefully..like I said..not everyone "screened" will get in and not everyone screened will be whitehats...some "bad seeds" will get in....well just have to weed them out.


--Will the "established members area" really prevent "black hats" or "script kiddies" from finding the information they really want, considering it is readily available elsewhere and on other forums (i.e., milw0rm)? Script kiddies and malicious users will weed themselves out by their reputations. I really don't think we need to set up further distinctions which may only serve to prevent legitimate, well-intentioned newbies from learning something new. I recommend leaving the entire forum wide-open, although some more aggressive moderation could help. ;)

Of course it wont prevent the "bad seeds" from the information...but at least they wont get it from me..other white hats or from this well respected forum.:)

I will talk this through internally and see what could be done. In any case, it would only take determination to 'infiltrate' this sort-of-private subforum, and we cannot be checking everyone's identity, normal moderation as it is takes a lot of time.

BTW please do NOT use bold, size, etc. for no reason, it makes posts look really bad, hard to read, and basically childish. Use red or bold for emphasis when it's needed, but that's usually a couple of words only. The huge blue signature is also rather awful to look at IMHO....

Thank you Mother for taking time to respond. I only want whats best for this forum. I love this place and want to see it grow to astronomical figures member wise. This is my home and I want to keep it clean. I have already voluntured and so has shamanvirtuel in previous post. I would be honored to take this position, so to help with your concerns of this forum being moderated. And I apologize for the bold and red, as well as the signature..I shall remedy it at once. :)


So what about an entirely seperate forum altogether? We could have the 'General BT Forum', and the 'Established Members Forum'.

I have ben admin of other forums and its only a hide mask that is needed..this will allow the "established member" to view it, and the general public cant. But there has to be a class or title for this hide to work...which is also simple.


And in all honesty Mother, no matter what we do, the script kiddies and black hats can inevitably find the information we would share on the internet. And yeah, hacking the site is a definite possibility. What we would wind up doing though, is creating that extra layer of work. Work that many might not go through. It's just to prevent that easy, casual access to this info...

At least that's the case for MHO...

This is my motivation for wanting this sub forum. Many will try to get in....very few will. And if they hack...its not like we cant ban the ip and name...well untill they get a proxy....but there would be a post count minimum...Id say...at LEAST 50 quality post to even begin to qualify.



Just a after thought- on the milw0rm forums my first few posts had to be approved by a moderator before being posted. We could apoint a few people for the task of filtering out "I wanna hack my girlfriends wireless, break into her myspace acount and find out who she's doing and then i wanna hack him too" requests. I seriously got a pm that said this on another forum

Some people are so desperate to catch their g/f or b/f cheating......lol...if their that damn paranoid...why are they even with them in the first place?? No trust = no meaningful relationship.

[seven]

I like the idea. But i dont like the idea.
Some honest people ( you may judge me if you want. ) are still learning. This can hinder an honest neophytes hunger for learning. ( such as myself...but i wouldnt exactly call myself a neophyte lol. )
I see what you are trying to do and i think it is a good thing, but perhaps have some levels to the information.
I hope we all agree when learning, we should learn from step one then advance into more complicated subjects.
I say we should have the general posting, then vote in those who know more than the average and you trust " a little bit". Then after seeing some positive posts from those selected members in the "intermediate bt discussion" vote them in to the "higher level learning discussion group" after you see they have:
1. advance skill wise and learning wise
2. You trust them more from reading what they have been posting.

I too feel like this is another home to me( i have 4 lol, my house, my girlfriends and my apt in college. This would be the fourth ) and i would like to get rid of those people who intend to use this knowledge for something other than curiosity and in general white hat hacking.

my 2 cents.

-seven

[shamanvirtuel]

decide who vote ?really tricky....do we really want a kind of "hierarchical system" ???
that's sounds really bad in my ears....

for me i see things like this(only a little exemple of what could be separate zones)

maybe a first presentation room
you MUST post here before anything else
who are you, say hello, and why not give hardware/software spec of ur BT2 machine
here can be the rules of forum....and the welcome msg....and disclaimer of not supporting any "kind of criminal activities"

after newbee zone....
like now with many more sub forums(ie install, configure, ......)
after 100 post gain access to senior zone, no mind to vote because senior members can easily be aware of "bad behaviours".....and act when necessary(mods must exists....i think so...)

senior zone...
well i propose right away to found a subforum dedicated to serious thinking in what we could propose for the Future of BT2...collaborative work is always effective.....

just my two cents....

Best Regards, Sh@M@n VirTu3l

[seven]

Your idea is a good expansion to mine. I like it.

p.s If this happens i want OP in the irc channel lol. i hang there all day, have a network of friends in the info. sec world is always fun.

[pureh@te]

This is getting out of hand. i like the idea of a member only place but i dont like the idea of who chooses who gets in a who doesnt. some one is gonna get pissed or get there feelings hurt and do somthing stupid. I know my profile says senior member but thats really just a reflectin of # of posts. 1/2 of mine were questions. although im much more knowledgable than i was im still a novice at pen testing. So I guess what Im saying is i feel bad for the few that really wANT TO LEARN why cant we just pm each othermore with specific questions or even e mail. The only other thought I had was make one thread area secret with a pass word that changes periodicly or some other hack that is needed to get in. If you can do it your in if not. to bad. It would be like the hack game on the internet. of which i could only get to level 3 so far

[alacityathome]

I vote that we include Purehate in the Established Members club.

Alacrity

[pureh@te]

aaaaaawwwwwwwwwwww.....................SHUCKShttp://www.dakotawest.com/images/buttrock3.gif

[-=Xploitz=-]

i like the idea of a member only place but i dont like the idea of who chooses who gets in a who doesnt. some one is gonna get pissed or get there feelings hurt and do somthing stupid. I know my profile says senior member but thats really just a reflectin of # of posts. 1/2 of mine were questions. although im much more knowledgable than i was im still a novice at pen testing. So I guess what Im saying is i feel bad for the few that really wANT TO LEARN why cant we just pm each other more with specific questions or even e mail. The only other thought I had was make one thread area secret with a pass word that changes periodicly or some other hack that is needed to get in. If you can do it your in if not. to bad. It would be like the hack game on the internet. of which i could only get to level 3 so far

Well,
Someone has to have seniority like Mother, shamanvirtuel, theprez ..etc...and the Mods/ Admins...someone who has been here a while and knows the members intentions. Thats who I thought should "pick" out the established members. The reason for not just PM-ing someone is that you sometimes want a broad field of answers to your questions so you can pick out the way you want to do it. For example...if you want to know how to prevent a certain program from opening certain ports...you don't always know who knows how to accomplish the task...so if you post it in the "established members forum"...many others will see it and hopefully lend you a hand, or possibly give you several roads to chose from without the fear of their info being used for bad things by "black hats". Yes I agree that some people could get their feelings hurt...but in time they will "establish" themselves or prove themselves to be good members who can be trusted and contribute to the higher cause. I didn't start this thread to stir up any shit, I just wanted to see a "Haven" here on this board where knowledge could be shared and questions could be asked without risk of flaming or labeling someone a black hat or "evil doer" because of the topics taboo or reply to be discussed.

EDIT::::::::::::::::::

BTW.. I personally feel that anyone who is opposed to the Idea of having this "established members area" are the ones who we should be weary of. Only people who don't want to see this happen are either

1. Blackhats full of mischief who want this information easily accessible ...... and open to the public.

..............or

2. People who genuinely think they should be able get in but cant because they haven't "proven" themselves yet in the "Elders eyes".

Fear of being rejected should not interfere with ones own personal growth in learning wireless security.

[pureh@te]

On the contrary I think This is a Great topic for disscusion because we can kind of see where every ones at. I guess Im for the idea for the most part I just worry about people and there egos when you give em a little power. I think mother does a excellent job of moderating the forums as far as im concerned that would be my choice for moderator of the new sub forum. what i dont understand {I'm jus' a po Kentucky boy wid no'shoes} is why it is so bad to talk about illegal stuff. is it just so little kids wont be hacking thier parents vpn network with thier company or is it really some how against internet law. I mean Ive never been to college for computers and i taught my self all this stuff [WITH ALOT OF FORUMS HELP OF COURSE} so its posible to find it all on the net any way its just your average idiot wont study..... so BRAIN FART your right why should we make it easy for them. I vote for the secret club. I only hope you guys teach me the secret hand shake so I can join. BTW I'm getting married this weekend and then going to Kaui for a week so if im gone dont be worried. hope fully they will have free internet a the hotel and i will be able to test drive my bt on usb ive never even used. Ill bring my lap top just in case.

[theprez98]

BTW I'm getting married this weekend and then going to Kaui for a week so if im gone dont be worried. hope fully they will have free internet a the hotel and i will be able to test drive my bt on usb ive never even used. Ill bring my lap top just in case.
Spend the time with your new wife, NOT your laptop and BT2! Leave your laptop at home. Trust me, it will pay dividends in the long run. ;)

[-=Xploitz=-]

so BRAIN FART.....
Good God pure-LOVE.....do you remember everything from other post?? Leave it to you to remember me making fun of myself :p

your right why should we make it easy for them. I vote for the secret club.

This was another reason I wanted the "Established Members Society" for BT2...If they want to lay their eyes on how to hack their neighbors router...let them find it somewhere else...just not here.


BTW I'm getting married this weekend and then going to Kaui for a week so if im gone dont be worried. hope fully they will have free internet a the hotel and i will be able to test drive my bt on usb ive never even used. Ill bring my lap top just in case.
Congrats purehate!!! I got married over the weekend and did a "themed" wedding...I went and bought a Knight of the Templar outfit with chain mail and a sir coat... my wife dressed up as a lovely maiden....Ill post the pics Sunday when we get them from the church....and BTW...you better listen to theprez...leave BT2 at home!! I wanted to bring mine as well...but remeber your priorities...wife first....BT2 second. ;)

[-~operator~-]

I am not around here for so long but i would like to add my 0,02...

i think the idea of creating a "senior members" only forum is really good, but the big problem is, how do you distinct between the good, the bad and the ugly? Who can you trust and who decides: "you're in and you're out?"

Linking the number of posts with the decision is not very practicable... it's not the number of posts (well, in some way it is), it's the quality that decides.

So, perhaps it would be practicable to make a decision based on an gremium with a minimum amount of senior members. I assume that shamanvirtuel, Mother, theprez98, xploitz and purehate are in the "VIP" section anyway. So let's say someone has reached 150 posts. A minimum of three "VIPs" take a (quick) look at his posts and decide "you're hot" or "you're not". So you get a feeling for the quality and you get a decision.
But no one can say what he is up to when it's getting dark outside.:)
Anyway, just a suggestion for a solution.

A few words from my side... actually i am doing my diploma work in pentesting a network, (yes, legally... trust me ;) ) and i have many questions... about wireless, xploiting, pentesting servers, clients, circumventing access controls and so on.
But i don't even ask, because i know i don't get an answer. I mean, how can you decide if i am allowed to do what i do... :rolleyes: Anyway, i like this forum, and it already helped me a lot. I think i stay. :p

As i said, the good, the bad and the ugly.

Cheers
operator

[-=Xploitz=-]

I am not around here for so long but i would like to add my 0,02...

Who can you trust and who decides: "you're in and you're out?"

If you read one of my post above..Well,
Someone has to have seniority like Mother, shamanvirtuel, theprez ..etc...and the Mods/ Admins...someone who has been here a while and knows the members intentions. Thats who I thought should "pick" out the established members.

I say who should be the "judge" in deciding the first group of candidates. It HAS TO BE someone who has been here a while. Someone who has a feel for the current members.

Linking the number of posts with the decision is not very practicable... it's not the number of posts (well, in some way it is), it's the quality that decides.

I completely agree...however, after 150 post...you should be able to make a rational decision about the persons demeanor. And yes...definitely the quality of the post will play a key role in determining the ultimate decision

So, perhaps it would be practicable to make a decision based on an gremium with a minimum amount of senior members.
But no one can say what he is up to when it's getting dark outside.:)

THIS is what I fear the most. A chameleon amongst the ranks. Like I said before with CAREFUL selection...most black hats will be weeded out even if they make it in. No one likes to have to make the final decision of who is in, unless your power tripping.....but its something that HAS to be done to make sure the sanctuary's purity is preserved.

I mean, how can you decide if i am allowed to do what i do... :rolleyes: Anyway, i like this forum, and it already helped me a lot. I think i stay. :p

We cant decide on what you can and cannot do in your own home...however we can control what information IS DISCLOSED to you by us. (No disrespect or hard feelings intended ~operator~) It will be a difficult decision to have to make...but please try to understand the relativeness and the importance of having an "Established Members" section.

I'm extremely happy that you love this board...thats one of the reasons why I see the necessity of having this done. For people like you who want to "follow the light" and participate on the board by asking questions and helping other members out. Do I know that your a White Hat?? Of course not...if you are..it WILL SHOW IN TIME. The same applies to Black Hats. Theirs will show in time as well.

[pureh@te]

ok the lap top stays at home. " I just wanna check my email ,Honey" yeah right. If you read about the Island of kauai having a huge DOS black out , It was not me!!!!!! Seriously though, I guess we should wait untill mother gets back to us.


"I assume that shamanvirtuel, Mother, theprez98, xploitz and purehate are in the "VIP" section anyway. " by the way there are other way more senior members that helped me like thorin, patton, hobbes and a few others that should be included just because they're not as active as us right now doesnt mean they cant be in the club.

In any case the bottom line is we could all learn more from each other. I have taught my self lots of pen testing in the last few weeks but im having a problem doing it stealthy and profesionaly. If i was black hatting I would be the eqivelent of the crack-head santa on friday after next. So Im all for taking our topics further. once more Id like to toss in a vote for helping support the forum with some ca$h if we want all this special cool shit so we can be the ELITE

[doggy]

i started on remote exploit a few years back, and still have my auditor security collection 150405-04 cd. i'm also a member of a locksmith forum that has a established members area. the members area was created for advanced users, developement and certain subject matters that was felt the noob's and thieves should not have instance accesce too. if in the genral forums someone posts on a subject thats was deemed a members area subject, a moderator will post a reply to that post informing them that it's a members only subject and no advice on the subject would be posted.
the biggest problem with the members area is after time the only members where the people in the locksmith trade. as a result the developments and improvements being put forward started to slow down.
i do agree with Xploitz on having a established members area. because when searching for information on a subject, 90% of posts are either repeated questions or repeated answers (due to people not knowing what the word search means).
as for having a post count minimum of xx quality post, this will keep me out of the members area due to me not being a advanced user, and not being a big poster.
may i suggest, if a established members area is created, can a advance forum be opened too. when people post in the members area and after x amount of time, this post is forwarded on to the advance forum, but the people in the members area have a forum called due for release, which they have the option to edit their posts before the posts are forwarded to the advance forum.
i ask this as this would cut down the time of searching, and although posts may be edited it would give good idea's in what area's to study further.

[-=Xploitz=-]

ok the lap top stays at home. " I just wanna check my email ,Honey" yeah right. If you read about the Island of kauai having a huge DOS black out , It was not me!!!!!! Seriously though, I guess we should wait untill mother gets back to us.


by the way there are other way more senior members that helped me like thorin, patton, hobbes and a few others that should be included just because they're not as active as us right now doesnt mean they cant be in the club.

I agree....and when their time comes..they too will have the option to opt in or not...and they shall be voted in as well as I and everyone else will be...whether the accuracy of judging the persons character is accurate or not....well...there will be another time for them. Just because you help people out doesn't mean you automatically get in...it just helps determine your character and helps with the voting process.

In any case the bottom line is we could all learn more from each other. I have taught my self lots of pen testing in the last few weeks but im having a problem doing it stealthy and profesionaly. once more Id like to toss in a vote for helping support the forum with some ca$h if we want all this special cool shit so we can be the ELITE

Yes we can learn from each other, but the best teacher of all is SELF. ;) The other's are merely here to show you how to apply the knowledge you've sought after.

It shouldnt cost the owner of this forum a dime to add this new sub forum to this board. All that has to be done is to create another area like this one (Specialist Topics) ...add some permissions....and create sud directories. The only way money would be an issue is if this board is paying by total space....not traffic.

[-=Xploitz=-]

as for having a post count minimum of xx quality post, this will keep me out of the members area due to me not being a advanced user, and not being a big poster.
may i suggest, if a established members area is created, can a advance forum be opened too. when people post in the members area and after x amount of time, this post is forwarded on to the advance forum, but the people in the members area have a forum called due for release, which they have the option to edit their posts before the posts are forwarded to the advance forum.
i ask this as this would cut down the time of searching, and although posts may be edited it would give good idea's in what area's to study further.

This is a wonderful suggestion doggy! This will hopefully eliminate the tension between n00bs and higher post counters wanting in immediately. I nominate this idea of an advanced area be set up as well. It gives new people something to shoot for and will possibly balance out the "Established Members Area"...

Good suggestion doggy! http://forums.remote-exploit.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Paton]

Take a look, there's barely a few members on here that date past '07, let alone '06.

Basically, we have got a handle of what B|T does, systems are setup, and have got totally annoyed with the... "Yha... I uh, lost my wep key, and uh... my freind bet me 2 goats, that i can "hack" his router.. And we leave.. Back to our other security sites

truthfully, there is far better places to get all the answers to the questions that are asked on here.. Like the program webpages...

B|T is just a toolbox.. It's like asking mother, who puts your lunch in the bag, how food makes your body work.

Only when I'm stumped, do I come here and read. But that's the key... I read... With the amount of crap out in the world wide porn gallery, there should't be any wep cracking Q's.

I think the advanced topic is the best idea. As not having to wade through all the repeated 12 times questions, would be nice.

Better yet... code up a script that requires you to search the site and google before posting, would solve alot.

I do have to say cudos to shamanvirtuel, you've done some good work with the OS. Actually a few of you's have....

Well my 2 cents... Btw.. I do this for fun, and am fairly "Noob" to it.. It's all about exploring and learning to me, but my life priorities aren't pentesting, much less cracking wifi... But it is fun stickin it to the man.

[shamanvirtuel]

thx BT is the best ever security suite, just hopes there will be a BT3 and i would like to say longlife to theses kind of spirit...

Best regards to bt crew

[theprez98]

I still believe this (entire) forum ought to be open to all. I despise the whole concept of "special" or "established" members when we really have no way to honestly judge someone (other than by the "quality" of their posts?).

[ghaze]

I'm not a blackhat and I don't ask many questions here. I feel a separate area for "real whitehats" smacks of elitism and violates the true spirit of hacking and open source.

The knowledge is out there for anyone to find. Denying access to this forum would not slow down an experienced "blackhat" in the least bit. He'll have his own word lists, and default router pass lists. Not only will he know how to use the various tools, he may have wriitten a few of his own.

As far as "wep bandits" and "hotmail/myspace" crackers go, who cares? If people are worried about their privacy, they ought to do something about it. That's the whole idea behind full disclosure. Most of the "script kiddies" I've run into don't have the open source background to be a threat, anyway. Like martial arts, by the time you've learned enough to be dangerous, hopefully you've also learned some responsibility. If not, there's plenty of prisons.

I don't have any problem with not answering posts from people with "questionable motives". I make it a practice not to, myself, but I don't delude myself that I'm actually making a difference.

Have Fun :D

[shamanvirtuel]

im a bit agree with you prez...
we don't need to vote...just to be aware.....
but..

i still believe that we do need a first presentation level access....with why not a form with captcha.....disclaimer.."rules"....

I still think we NEED a development zone.....here we can put modules we built from sources specially for bt, ideas for future scripts....i want to translate bt menu so i will need help for some languages...for exemple..
we need this kind of collaborative works..even if we are not so many seriously interested....it will be effective....

Just want to make the forum have more life....not let it be a question/answer forum...it will be loss of time if so...

again im french sorry for my english...

[-~operator~-]

by the way there are other way more senior members that helped me like thorin, patton, hobbes and a few others that should be included just because they're not as active as us right now doesnt mean they cant be in the club.

sorry, i mostly saw the others posting... don't wanna ignore someone ;)


@ghaze

The knowledge is out there for anyone to find.

word!


I don't have any problem with not answering posts from people with "questionable motives". I make it a practice not to, myself, but I don't delude myself that I'm actually making a difference.
well, i have a problem. This would go against my ethics. I am not cracking wep / hacking into servers that doesn't belong to me or that i have no permission to do so. And, most important, i will not help anyone with suspicious "i got the wep key but can't surf the net". I will not aid and abet criminal activities, 'cause here in germany this will get you to court if they catch you.

Try to find a job in security business with this in your files. No thanks.

[Paton]

Quote:
I don't have any problem with not answering posts from people with "questionable motives". I make it a practice not to, myself, but I don't delude myself that I'm actually making a difference.

well, i have a problem. This would go against my ethics. I am not cracking wep / hacking into servers that doesn't belong to me or that i have no permission to do so. And, most important, i will not help anyone with suspicious "i got the wep key but can't surf the net". I will not aid and abet criminal activities, 'cause here in germany this will get you to court if they catch you.

This will lead to the site going bye-bye as well.

Even in the US they are starting to crack down on war driving and unauthorized use of WiFi Signal..

Pure and simple... You lock the door... crappy lock or not, someone going into your home is still ILLEGAL.

learn all you want, but there's no reason to learn on someone elses stuff...

[-~operator~-]

Even in the US they are starting to crack down on war driving and unauthorized use of WiFi Signal..

Here in germany they are on the way to redefine the existing "hacking law" which results in:

- No capturing of wireless signals if you don't "belong to the network" --> no more Wardriving

- No download, selling, distribution, owning of tools if they are possibly intended for criminal activities. So anyone who is using all the kewl B|T stuff is "prejudged" as criminal... the law says it has to be "in preparation of crimininal actions" but who can say what you are up to when downloading metasploit or even B|T, for example. What am i? Blackhat or Whitehat? I can already see lawsuits knocking at my door after downloading B|T 3.0 :D

[theprez98]

This will lead to the site going bye-bye as well.

Even in the US they are starting to crack down on war driving and unauthorized use of WiFi Signal..

Pure and simple... You lock the door... crappy lock or not, someone going into your home is still ILLEGAL.

learn all you want, but there's no reason to learn on someone elses stuff...
Wardriving, properly defined as logging and/or mapping of wireless networks, is clearly not illegal (at least in the U.S.).

Actually using that signal is plain and simple: theft of services, which is going beyond wardriving.

Even if your door to your home is unlocked, this does not mean anyone can just walk right in. It is still your home. The same could be said of leaving your wireless network unencrypted.

I challenge anyone to find one single case (in the U.S.) of someone who has been successfully prosecuted for wardriving (and wardriving alone). I'm not talking about wardriving and then hacking into someone's network, I'm talking about simply logging networks with NetStumbler or Kismet, etc.

[-=Xploitz=-]

So,

Well then...what do we do?? We need an admin like Mother to give us the heads up. I believe he is the one who makes the final decision. I have pleaded my case and defended it the best I could...mabey the best thing for now is to have the members vote on what they would rather have yes??

1. Established Members Area only

2. Established Members Area with an Advanced Pentesters Area or with a mix of levels such as doggy and shamanvirtuel suggested

3. No Established members Area nor an Advanced Members area. (Just leave the board as is.)

Personally...I vote for #2. Its well rounded and will give everyone something to shoot for and to hone thier skills step by step. http://forums.remote-exploit.org/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://forums.remote-exploit.org/images/icons/icon14.gif 2 thumbs up!!

[Paton]

I think your right Prez about simple wardriving.... Just give it time...

That sucks operator.... It'll probably be like how they treat catching guys with bolt cutters and what not.

[pureh@te]

2. Established Members Area with an Advanced Pentesters Area or with a mix of levels such as doggy and shamanvirtuel suggestedhttp://www.traders-talk.com/mb2/style_emoticons/default/vote.gif

If I must I vote for this.

[-~operator~-]

That sucks operator.... It'll probably be like how they treat catching guys with bolt cutters and what not.

well, another educated ingenieur that will leave this country to go west and tries to find gold somewhere else... but we are getting off-topic now ;)

i my voice also counts, i would stick to purehate and xploitz.

[-=Xploitz=-]

Just added the "Unofficial poll" Please keep in mind the Owner(s)/Admin(s)/Mod(s) have the final say in this, but your vote will be the voice they listen to. Make your vote count. And remember that if you don't vote, you don't have a right to bitch about the outcome. ;)

[seven]

I voted yay! haha..funny, i have still yet to vote for anything else in real life hah. I better get on that.


meh...nm i voted for my Campus Funds president. but thats about it haha.

[pureh@te]

http://eipl.suffolk.lib.ny.us/teencorner/images/RTV-BL-LG.gif

[-=Xploitz=-]

C'mon guys..we need ALOT more votes than this!!

[Mother]

After hearing the other members views I'm now on the fence. What I would like to know from the administator {i.e. MOTHER} is some xcact guide lines for talking about contrversial topics. Of course I know the forum rules but what I dont understand why its taboo to talk about ilegal behavior. I mean is there some sort of international internet law that Im unaware of because in the us such things are protected by the first admendment. I mean I can get the plans for a pipe bomb or the formula for anthrax {i'm assuming this i dont really know} but its only ilegal if i posses it or use it. So lets a t least have the guide lines clear. we can always PM each other or Email. Im not afraid to give out my email. wouldnt do you any good to hack it any way. Im boring.

The problem is not whether we are free or not to exchange information (which of course we are), but the amount of heat that can be brought to a forum if it is found to be the exchange point of instructions for blatantly illegal behavior. It's OK to talk about cracking WEP, but the trained eye will notice very soon when the person asking is only interested in cracking his next door neighbor's WiFi (as he likely will not have a clue about anything else). Since there is no international white-hat hacker ID card, we have to live on our reputations, and this means ZERO tolerance with even marginal attitudes. You have noticed the presence of almost every three-letter agency (not to name many foreign services) at Defcon, you think this forums aren't patrolled either?

Just a after thought- on the milw0rm forums my first few posts had to be approved by a moderator before being posted. We could apoint a few people for the task of filtering out "I wanna hack my girlfriends wireless, break into her myspace acount and find out who she's doing and then i wanna hack him too" requests. I seriously got a pm that said this on another forum

A pending issue I have to discuss with Muts is the appointment of moderators, but for now, the status is that new users can only post in the newbies area for three days, which makes pruning the idiots much easier. Reporting supposedly bad or unruly posts also helps, you have a button dedicated just to that ;)

Cheers,

Mother

[Mother]

This is getting out of hand. i like the idea of a member only place but i dont like the idea of who chooses who gets in a who doesnt. some one is gonna get pissed or get there feelings hurt and do somthing stupid. I know my profile says senior member but thats really just a reflectin of # of posts. 1/2 of mine were questions. although im much more knowledgable than i was im still a novice at pen testing. So I guess what Im saying is i feel bad for the few that really wANT TO LEARN why cant we just pm each othermore with specific questions or even e mail. The only other thought I had was make one thread area secret with a pass word that changes periodicly or some other hack that is needed to get in. If you can do it your in if not. to bad. It would be like the hack game on the internet. of which i could only get to level 3 so far

This was exactly the point of my next post, so I reply and quote as you make it easier :)

Seniority based on number of posts does not necessarily correlate to the ability of someone to moderate a forum. This can only be judged by others who have followed the track record of said user, and since the decision of appointing a moderator belongs to the administrators, it is them who must be confident.

Just to give you an example, I know theprez98 from the Netstumbler forums, which I have moderated for a number of years now, and probably would appoint him before any of the other people nominated in this thread - don't take this personally, but it's a question of trust (and even then I'd have to check with the other admins and owners of the forums!).

The first thing you can start doing to see if you can be a moderator? Report bad posts, infringing on what is considered acceptable behavior, etc. The admins will see these and, together with your posting manners and profile, decide whether you make the right calls.

A few quick rules so that nobody gets upset:

1. There is no one-size-fits-all rule for moderators, it's a question of feeling and trust.

2. You can be denied being a moderator with no explanation whatsoever. Nobody owes you an explanation. Don't take it personally.

3. Becoming a moderator does not happen in days or weeks. Read the end of rule #1.

Cheers,

Mother

[Mother]

I still believe this (entire) forum ought to be open to all. I despise the whole concept of "special" or "established" members when we really have no way to honestly judge someone (other than by the "quality" of their posts?).

I'm with you on this one, for the same reasons:

1. "Blackhats" already have the info. If not, they have plenty of money and resources to get it, and a 'private' area on this forum is not going to deprive them of any information they cannot gather elsewhere on the net. They may even have their own crews of coders looking for new exploits, maybe some of you are not aware, but last year, online fraud (including phishing, stealing CCs, etc.) moved more money worldwide than drugs.

2. There is no way to veto people on the scale needed to maintain such a forum. I could probably vouch for a few people, but some of you who have only recently joined - I just know nothing about. And it's VERY easy to make oneself a cover image online.

3. To stop kiddies, the trained eye is the best. That's what makes a good moderator good, the ability to spot the idiot who knows nothing and just wants to do something bad with a tool, and this can be very subtle, not just those who blatantly ask away.

Just my opinion,

Mother

[Mother]

I still think we NEED a development zone.....here we can put modules we built from sources specially for bt, ideas for future scripts....i want to translate bt menu so i will need help for some languages...for exemple..
we need this kind of collaborative works..even if we are not so many seriously interested....it will be effective....

Now that's a different story, and one worth considering. It would also be easier to manage, as those who have actually contributed to BT could be allowed in this developer's forum (and by request maybe those who are working on contributing). Will get back to you on this one quick.

Regards,

Mother

[shamanvirtuel]

Really happy to hear you Mother....

and Im also agree with you when you describe roles and necessary feelings for beeing Moderator...need to have long time to spend here...be reactive too...and with a much of empathy...

Waiting back for an answer, for my proposition of developer zone....I think some of us have many capabilities that could be share to others who share in return their knowledge.....I think that must be in a dedicated forum.

All This in order to keep alive our favorite nux, with constant eye on what could be done in the future....

THX 4 GIVING US BT........(Sh@m@nVirTuel, new to forum, BT user since BT1....)

[-=Xploitz=-]

Well then, there you have it folks. I fought for a cause that I believed in, and lost. But did I really lose? No...In reallity, I arose members awareness of the "subtle" and crafty ways in which blackhats try to decieve us. We really need to be careful in what we say, respond to...and the types of people we associate with. Bottom line is I suppose, is that we have to cover our asses and chose WISELY whom we decide to disclose certain information to. I personally loved my idea and was very excited that there was a possibility of a new sub forum hopefully to be added here....but I'm really glad that we got alot of cares and true concerns out in the open. Mother is right, when you appoint mods and admins...you HAVE TO TRUST THEM...cause if you don't, there is a possibility that "bad seeds" will sprout and the whole forum could easily become corrupt. I'm sorry if I caused any friction between everyone. I only wanted what I truly believed in that would help this community out. It wasn't my place I suppose...but I was compelled to defend the whitehats and all other good members of this forum.... from the deceptive tactics of mischievous blackhats and kiddie scriptors alike. Forgive my behavior Mother and fellow whitehats.

TOPIC CLOSED.......
..................................Xploitz

[Paton]

Just alittle heads up for anyone thinking Moding is easy....... It's not. I mod a biking forum, and it's a huge pain, and nothing there is illegal or touchy.

The fastest way too loose intrest in a forum is to moderate it.

[Mother]

Well then, there you have it folks. I fought for a cause that I believed in, and lost. But did I really lose? No...In reallity, I arose members awareness of the "subtle" and crafty ways in which blackhats try to decieve us. We really need to be careful in what we say, respond to...and the types of people we associate with. Bottom line is I suppose, is that we have to cover our asses and chose WISELY whom we decide to disclose certain information to. I personally loved my idea and was very excited that there was a possibility of a new sub forum hopefully to be added here....but I'm really glad that we got alot of cares and true concerns out in the open. Mother is right, when you appoint mods and admins...you HAVE TO TRUST THEM...cause if you don't, there is a possibility that "bad seeds" will sprout and the whole forum could easily become corrupt. I'm sorry if I caused any friction between everyone. I only wanted what I truly believed in that would help this community out. It wasn't my place I suppose...but I was compelled to defend the whitehats and all other good members of this forum.... from the deceptive tactics of mischievous blackhats and kiddie scriptors alike. Forgive my behavior Mother and fellow whitehats.

TOPIC CLOSED.......
..................................Xploitz

Don't think of it as winning or losing, it's a forum, and by definition a place to openly discuss ideas. Some are good, some are not so good, but they are all needed to keep the talk going. Also, no need to apologize, and again, if anyone felt any "friction", well, they should get more lube!

Cheers,

Mother

[Mother]

The fastest way too loose intrest in a forum is to moderate it.

I should put that in my signature ;)

Cheers,

Mother

BTW I'm about to get a Scott MC50, what forum is this you moderate? (sorry for the off-topic, but I had to ask)

[Paton]

I should put that in my signature ;)

Cheers,

Mother

BTW I'm about to get a Scott MC50, what forum is this you moderate? (sorry for the off-topic, but I had to ask)

I think you can go off topic... It's called East Coast Mountan Biking, aka ecmtb.c o m It's basically for the East Coast of Canada.

Nice ride Really nice... Due to injuries, I don't ride anymore, but I had a Giant AC decked out for DH, and a HT for everything else.

[theprez98]

The fastest way too loose intrest in a forum is to moderate it.
I guess it all depends on experience. The two places I hang out the most, NetStumbler forums and Defcon forums, are moderated with a very heavy hand. Yet both get a significant amount of traffic and even thrive because of, not despite, the moderating.

[Mother]

I would add to that though that the Defcon forums implement a similar vesting procedure, and even clean out inactive users, etc. thus their spam levels are almost zero - this is prolly not the place to talk about it, but the NS forums could do with a similar approach IMHO.

Regards,

Mother

(Yes, I suggested it to Thorn but don't know what happened afterwards...)

[shamanvirtuel]

"and even clean out inactive users"

will be also a good idea here.........

maybe after 1 month with no post, a pv could be dropped in PM of user or an email saying account will be disabled in 2 weeks....2 weeks after...user database cleaned ;)

will really be a could be a fair thing to do , fair because current users(real users i mean°) number of forum is incorrect....

[theprez98]

Either way, I just make suggestions and smile at the results (if any). :D

[shamanvirtuel]

just see in cofw that a distro based on bt is preparing...thx prez 4 link...im waiting my 7 days...

hope i can help in some improvements...and why not in a french real(why not hardcoded) translation for backtrack(not just kde)....

happy to see backtrack family growing each days.....

i begin work(exclusivity here) in translations(translate message and keyboard layouts...im azerty) for bt2 welcome and login screen....hope to do it for initialisation process too....

any help welcome....pm me.....

second thing im looking after a konch specialist...im building a tray gui for a script im building at the same time...need some advice about dcop and networking things....


ps admin... we do need a development zone....;)

[cormega]

OK, so I just read this whole thread... guess you could say I'm a bit late for this discussion :p

there is a lot of good insight here and there are without a doubt many good reasons for and against such a sub-forum, the decision (as I understood it) was to not implement such a feature which I guess is more or less good news for me as I am not very active on this forum - although this is the first place I stop by when I am in need.


"and even clean out inactive users"

will be also a good idea here.........

maybe after 1 month with no post, a pv could be dropped in PM of user or an email saying account will be disabled in 2 weeks....2 weeks after...user database cleaned ;)

will really be a could be a fair thing to do , fair because current users(real users i mean°) number of forum is incorrect....

wow, I really don't want this feature on this forum..

I do not mean to disrespect you shamanvirtuel but I think it would result in a lot of crappy posting if 20' of the 25000 (or something like that) members would log on to the forum every third week and post some bullshit just to keep their account..

In addition, I have myself been a member here for almost 2 years now, but my post count has only reached around 100 posts, this does not mean that i don't use the forum a lot - it just means that I have much more to learn than what I have to contribute with so far..

If I ever learn something I know no-one here has postet before and I feel would benefit this forum I would in an instant, but so far I have only been asking the questions - not answering them... On top of it all I can go inactive on this forum for months at a time due to a lot of stuff to do at work or on my freetime but once I get back in to that information security state of mind I still want my membership on this forum to be valid and for my posts to remain...


There, even I got to contribute with my 2 cents in this thread ;)

[-=Xploitz=-]

Wow. You responded to a year old thread. Nice thread necromancy skills there cormega. :D

BTW. Looking back at this thread that I started, I realize now that this was a bad idea on my part. I'm one of the most, if not the most, proactive member on these forums that support OPEN knowledge for all persons of all levels of skills. I believe that EVERYONE should be able to have access to "taboo" information without having to go through a freaking resume and background check. The way I see it is....if I expose member A with a tutorial on how to preform a back-door exploit, and member a doesn't understand how I'm doing it,...1 of 2 things will happen.

(1.) Member A will look at it an think "Dude! This is so over my head...I'll never figure this Sh!t out." (And he'll give up) or....

(2.) He'll look it over and try, and try, and try again and ask questions and Google up everything he can think of on the subject and educate himself on it and eventually begin to understand all the commands and output. (Hopefully..lol):D

God how I want to delete this whole entire thread. WTF was I thinking?:confused: Only "special members" get access to the goods. How unfair!! :mad: F-THAT!!!:cool:

[Barry]

you better listen to theprez...leave BT2 at home!! I wanted to bring mine as well...but remeber your priorities...wife first....BT2 second. ;)

You're off a bit, it's wife first, having fun (doing her stuff)second, having fun with your stuff some where under "honey could you wash my car". ;) Trust me on this one, I've been married twice now.


Congratulations by the way. To both of you. :D

As for the secret order of the l337 BT folks, I like the just using pm more. Or skype, aim, gtalk.. We already have a fairly good idea of who knows what around here, having a members only sub-forum just confuses things.

[-=Xploitz=-]

You're off a bit, it's wife first, having fun (doing her stuff)second, having fun with your stuff some where under "honey could you wash my car". ;) Trust me on this one, I've been married twice now.


Congratulations by the way. To both of you. :D

As for the secret order of the l337 BT folks, I like the just using pm more. Or skype, aim, gtalk.. We already have a fairly good idea of who knows what around here, having a members only sub-forum just confuses things.

Thanks Barry, our 1 year wedding anniversary will be this May 20th, but we've been together for 8 years now. I figured anything earlier than 7 years was just rushing into it. :D

Also I just passed my 1 year anniversary here at the forums. :cool: Been a GREAT year of learning, sharing, and just plain good old fashioned FUN! http://forums.remote-exploit.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

Also, about the secrete order of the ub3r 1337 BT folks....I completely agree with you on that one Barry. PM, IM are the best..along with IRC. And when your really stuck, theres always the no0bie area! :D:D I found that pretty much anytime I have a question about something that I've tried to figure out on my own and couldn't...your friends will help you here on the forums. I suggest to everyone that you make good strong relationships with as many members as you can, and only burn bridges IF NECESSARY.


WHAT A GREAT COMMUNITY!! http://forums.remote-exploit.org/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://forums.remote-exploit.org/images/icons/icon14.gif:cool:

[Barry]

See, this is what I get for posting before coffee. Wasn't looking at the post dates... :rolleyes:

[cormega]

Wow. You responded to a year old thread. Nice thread necromancy skills there cormega. :D


Thank you thank you, it's been something I've been working on a lot lately :p