Warflying

[wyze]

So I'm going into my 4th lesson now for my private pilot's license. Something that I've been thinking about is doing some warflying while I'm u there using a mod'd wrt54g setup I have.

Now here is my dilemma and before anyone shoots me the obvious link (http://www.JUST****INGGOOGLEIT.com), I have done the research on the legality and came up blank. My instructor is cool, but I doubt he'd be cool enough to answer answer the legality question for me, so does anyone have any idea on whether or not this is legal????

[balding_parrot]

I remember watching a program that said it was against the law to use electonic equipment in an aircraft that isn't FAA approved, due to the fact that it can interfere with navigation equipment. They also said that that was not just limited to equipment capable of transmitting a radio signal. I also know that the use of TX/RX radio equipment eg cell phones and two way radio is also against the law.

So .............. ?

[wyze]

One thing that I was told was that the use of a cell phone was ok by the FAA, but not by the FCC (or vice versa). I specifically asked my instructor if there was an issue with the comm / nav / transponder when a cell phone is used in flight, to which he said not at all. I did leave my phone on unintentionally during one flight, where there was audible data interference with our headsets...

Info on wifi is not clear. I found articles stating that the FAA/FCC will allow wifi on commercial flights, but I've found not one piece of info on in the FAR's that are close to 'warflying'.

I'll also put it out there that I'm not going to even attempt it until there is assurance that it is legal and safe, but right now it's one of those grey areas

Also, we do VFR flights, where navigation equipment isn't used whatsoever

[balding_parrot]

It seems to one of those where it depends who and what day you speak to someone from one of those departments as to what answer you will get.

I seem to remember that the problem was more to do with the ILS system, but then this is one of those subjects where I only know very little.

I remember a "mythbusters" program where they were specifically looking at whether cell phones interfered with the instruments, and their tests showed that the ILS would spike off the scale in either direction when the phone was in use or just polling. But they could not reproduce those results in commercial aircraft.

[Funnyman]

Are you not travel too fast to even pick up a AP signal?

[armedpilot]

As a student, you should study the FAR's. You'll need to understand them for the "written" (which isn't written any more, it's all computer based). Basically, as far as the FAA is concerned, the PIC is responsible for all aspects of flight, including ascertaining if a electroinic device is good to go or not. And it's really only and issue on IFR flights, not VFR. I've never had a problem with any electronic device. The FCC cares about cell phones, because, in the past, the could tie up many cell sites at the same time. As far as warflying, personally, if I were you, I would focus on your lesson, as you're paying some money to take that lesson. And after you get your ticket, you should be focused on see and avoid. If you have a safety pilot with you, you could warfly depending on location. Neither FAA or the FCC care, but there may be regs locally.

[Barry]

It shouldn't bother anything on or around the plane. If 2.4ghz signals messed with the avionics then they wouldn't allow wifi at the airport. I know it's been done before and it didn't bring the different aircraft down. So throwing a modded wrt in the back shouldn't bring the plane down. It's really up to the instructor. If he's cool with it, throw it in the back and forget it till you're back on the ground.

[PrairieFire]

Check this out (http://forum.s-t-d.org/viewtopic.php?id=2930). Should help you with some of your questions. I think these bans are related to equipment that transmits causing problems just like cellphones near unprotected speaker wires. Considering almost all consumer electronics they ban from use while in flight transmit and receive that is probably why they use such a broad "ban."

[wyze]

Check this out (http://forum.s-t-d.org/viewtopic.php?id=2930). Should help you with some of your questions. I think these bans are related to equipment that transmits causing problems just like cellphones near unprotected speaker wires. Considering almost all consumer electronics they ban from use while in flight transmit and receive that is probably why they use such a broad "ban."

Awesome.... I actually found out through unnamed resources that there is nothing illegal about it.... thanx for the link PF

personally, if I were you, I would focus on your lesson, as you're paying some money to take that lesson. And after you get your ticket, you should be focused on see and avoid. If you have a safety pilot with you, you could warfly depending on location. Neither FAA or the FCC care, but there may be regs locally.

No doubt. I'm in no immediate rush to warfly, but when I am, I'm going to set everything up preflight not bothering with it in-flight, for safety issues.

[mchollan]

I went on a 12 hour flight to Hawaii with a friend of mine and we used ad-hoc network on the plane to play some games against each other. There was no interference with any nav/com systems that i knew about... i know this doesn't answer the legality issue but im just saying i didn't get into any trouble for it.

[-=Xploitz=-]

In some countries its illegal to wardrive. You'll have to check with your countries laws, policies and procedures to know for sure. In America..as of right now..wardriving is Legal.

[ats1080]

how exactly do you plan on picking up signals flying? i would think you would be going too fast and be too far away to pick anything up

[PrairieFire]

how exactly do you plan on picking up signals flying? i would think you would be going too fast and be too far away to pick anything up
Change those two variables? look at the link I posted...

[ats1080]

Change those two variables? look at the link I posted...

change those 2 variables to what? i had a look at your link and although i can see an ap receiving a transmit from that antenna, i still dont see how a typical ap can transmit that far. to my knowledge most aps have a max range of 1400 feet with no obstacles between ap and receiver.

[streaker69]

change those 2 variables to what? i had a look at your link and although i can see an ap receiving a transmit from that antenna, i still dont see how a typical ap can transmit that far. to my knowledge most aps have a max range of 1400 feet with no obstacles between ap and receiver.

I've picked up AP's from over a mile on the open highway.

[ats1080]

how do you do that? the range on my ap's sucks. i cant even take my laptop to my barn a couple hundred feet from the house and get a connection to look up how to work on my bike. ive owned 3 different wireless card and the all seem to go about the same distance. ones a wusb54g, ones a bcm4311 built into my laptop and ones a pcmcia card. the only way i got it to work was to run an extention cord and cat 5 and put the ap in the yard. one of my ap's is a belkin with ddwrt and the other is a linksys with ddwrt

[streaker69]

how do you do that? the range on my ap's sucks. i cant even take my laptop to my barn a couple hundred feet from the house and get a connection to look up how to work on my bike. ive owned 3 different wireless card and the all seem to go about the same distance. ones a wusb54g, ones a bcm4311 built into my laptop and ones a pcmcia card. the only way i got it to work was to run an extention cord and cat 5 and put the ap in the yard. one of my ap's is a belkin with ddwrt and the other is a linksys with ddwrt

I was out on I80 (PA) and I started picking up Walmart AP's from more than a mile away. The store just happened to be on a hill higher than highway so it had an advantage in it's broadcast range.

I did say I detected it, not connected to it.

[ats1080]

802.11 technologies are good for small homes and apartments but when you get into businesses and people who want access all over their property it really isn't a solution. hell N is even worse than G....it would be awesome if someone would invent a lower frequency, maybe 1.5GHz or even down to 900MHz, so it can go farther. it would definitely have slow bandwidth, but i think it would have a market for its range. in before "range extenders" "high gain antennas" "lol look at link i posted" and general "google is you're friend" bullshit. this should be a technology sold out of the box.

[streaker69]

802.11 technologies are good for small homes and apartments but when you get into businesses and people who want access all over their property it really isn't a solution. hell N is even worse than G....it would be awesome if someone would invent a lower frequency, maybe 1.5GHz or even down to 900MHz, so it can go farther. it would definitely have slow bandwidth, but i think it would have a market for its range. in before "range extenders" "high gain antennas" and general "google is you're friend" bullshit. this should be a technology sold out of the box.

No one says you can't have more than one AP in your house. Some of us have 4 to cover the entire area. I can go anywhere on my property and have an excellent signal. Just a matter of getting it setup just right.

[ats1080]

i live in the sticks and it would be nice to get range down to my pond and other areas that are well over 500 feet away and have plenty of obstical to decrease signal. its not very practical to make a house for an ap...

[streaker69]

i live in the sticks and it would be nice to get range down to my pond and other areas that are well over 500 feet away and have plenty of obstical to decrease signal. its not very practical to make a house for an ap...

You could use a pair of yagi's to connect up to a solar powered AP at your pond. There are plans out there for making a solar powered AP.

[shamanvirtuel]

see this one :

http://www.luminip.com/products/specs/pdf/LightWave%20Specifications_Final%204-12-06.pdf

really nice and discreet

[ats1080]

thats awesome, ill definately keep my eye on that. probably going to be ridiculously expesive though...

[streaker69]

thats awesome, ill definately keep my eye on that. probably going to be ridiculously expesive though...

It shouldn't be too bad to make one. A small solar panel you can get from allelectronics.com for a few bux. Then all you need is a nice battery and a couple of voltage regulators. One to charge the battery and another to maintain a steady voltage to the AP.

You could probably put something together for less than $60.00

[PrairieFire]

I was out on I80 (PA) and I started picking up Walmart AP's from more than a mile away. The store just happened to be on a hill higher than highway so it had an advantage in it's broadcast range.

I did say I detected it, not connected to it.

Using just a 7.4dBi Comet omni, amplifier and Senao 2511CD+EXT2 I can pickup Walmart, HomeDepot and Lowes at Interstate speeds around the same distance. I have seen most of them have exterior external antennas along the perimeter though. The oddest thing for me is when Im at work cruising along the interstate in the middle of nowhere and picking up AP's but cannot figure out WTH they are.

[-=Xploitz=-]

The oddest thing for me is when Im at work cruising along the interstate in the middle of nowhere and picking up AP's but cannot figure out WTH they are.

I'd put money that you passed them just seconds ago... and Airodump or Kismet was just deciphering the data and able to print out the info on your screen several seconds later. It (airodump) will leave "passed by AP's" in its memory for over a minute on your screen with no real signal coming from the AP at all..... Thats been my wardriving experience anyways. I bet if you look behind you..you'll see where they are coming from..assuming your not flying at 100MPH by 'em. :p

[PrairieFire]

I'd put money that you passed them just seconds ago... and Airodump or Kismet was just deciphering the data and able to print out the info on your screen several seconds later. It (airodump) will leave "passed by AP's" in its memory for over a minute on your screen with no real signal coming from the AP at all..... Thats been my wardriving experience anyways. I bet if you look behind you..you'll see where they are coming from..assuming your not flying at 100MPH by 'em. :p

Maybe some of the time but highly unlikely in some of the more remote stretches of Interstates I travel. I believe they are actually other notebook cards incorrectly configured acting as ad-hoc's. I remember vaguely a while back there was a article talking about this problem at workplaces. I have noticed some rest stops, river level monitoring station's and rolling weight stations have access points though.

[-=Xploitz=-]

I believe they are actually other notebook cards incorrectly configured acting as ad-hoc's.

I forgot about Ad-Hoc's!! Good point! ;)
They definitely give off info as AP's..especially in Kismet.

[streaker69]

Maybe some of the time but highly unlikely in some of the more remote stretches of Interstates I travel. I believe they are actually other notebook cards incorrectly configured acting as ad-hoc's. I remember vaguely a while back there was a article talking about this problem at workplaces. I have noticed some rest stops, river level monitoring station's and rolling weight stations have access points though.

You're right. It's a 'flaw/feature' that WinXP has and was reported to MS by Simple Nomad. WinXP once it disconnects from a network will begin to broadcast the SSID of the last network it was connected to in AD-HOC mode. If people join this network, they'll actually form a AD-HOC network on the IP range of 169.254.x.x. You'll see it alot at Airports.

[-=Xploitz=-]

You're right. It's a 'flaw/feature' that WinXP has and was reported to MS by Simple Nomad. WinXP once it disconnects from a network will begin to broadcast the SSID of the last network it was connected to in AD-HOC mode. If people join this network, they'll actually form a AD-HOC network on the IP range of 169.254.x.x. You'll see it alot at Airports.

Who needs that Fake AP program...,whats it called again in BT??? :confused: (probably something obvious like "Fake AP I bet!!..lol) when you got multiple bogus Ad-Hoc created networks floating around out there, and bouncing off each other... and being broadcast by other clients!! :D

[wyze]

You're right. It's a 'flaw/feature' that WinXP has and was reported to MS by Simple Nomad. WinXP once it disconnects from a network will begin to broadcast the SSID of the last network it was connected to in AD-HOC mode. If people join this network, they'll actually form a AD-HOC network on the IP range of 169.254.x.x. You'll see it alot at Airports.

Well I'll be damned! That was something that had puzzled me for longest time.

I think the solution to fixing that is to go into the XP wireless connection properties and remove all of the preferred networks from the list.

[streaker69]

Well I'll be damned! That was something that had puzzled me for longest time.

I think the solution to fixing that is to go into the XP wireless connection properties and remove all of the preferred networks from the list.

Or just disable your wireless card when you ain't usin' it.

[wyze]

Or just disable your wireless card when you ain't usin' it.

That's the best option ;)