Rapid7 has acquired Metasploit

[lupin]

Originally Posted by archangel.amael

Also one does have to consider the amount of "crap" (and I use the term loosely) that doesn't even show up here for others to read.

Boy, you can say that again... I spent a good proportion of this morning dealing with some of that, just before I wrote my post above in fact, which probably influenced my rather opinionated response. But yes, most normal users would have no idea of the crap that gets posted here that they dont even see, some of it posted by the very users that are the topic of discussion in this thread.

[SephStorm]

Originally Posted by lupin

So you're complaining about us complaining?

We were having a discussion on these types of members as well as ways in which to deal with them. Dont you think its worthwhile to try and discuss ways in which to improve the situation on the forum? Or do you just advocate the "suffer in silence" approach? Maybe you would also be a little less likely to say "just put up with it" if you were a moderator and had to approve large numbers of these poorly considered posts, and then remind said posters of the forum rules that they have just agreed to but apparently havent read.

Personally I want to keep the standards of this forum high, and if a little discussion helps that, then its a small price to pay.

Its also possible that some members who may be inclined to behave in this manner will read this thread, and then change their behaviour accordingly. Someone has to be aware of a problem before they can resolve it after all.

Wouldn't you prefer those discussions to be in their own threads? I find it very annoying when I am trying to learn something, like when I came to this thread looking to find out about something I had no idea had happened, and I still know very little about it, because in part, I had to read a page full of those posts.

Im all for keeping the board professional, but I would rather discuss those things in there own threads.

I find it funny how we are raised to ask questions, told there is no such thing as a stupid question, and then in this industry, ridiculed when we do. Just saying.

[archangel.amael]

Originally Posted by SephStorm

I find it very annoying when I am trying to learn something, like when I came to this thread looking to find out about something I had no idea had happened, and I still know very little about it, because in part, I had to read a page full of those posts.

There are 22 posts in this thread well 23 with this one, can you please post the thread numbers that you are talking about so that I can take a better look at them. So far the only thing that I see that really is not on topic are your posts and those that have responded to it. No all together they are worth crap in comparison with the thread itself title itself. So in order for us to maintain a higher standard and the Mod's to Moderate, if someone makes a post that is not on topic or is one of "those posts" that detracts from the general theme use the report button and we can then better decide and take the appropriate action/s if needed.

I find it funny how we are raised to ask questions, told there is no such thing as a stupid question, and then in this industry, ridiculed when we do. Just saying.

Not sure about this second part here about "raised to ask questions" since no one here really "raising" anyone.
Again please make note of the posts that you feel detract from the thread and post them in response.

[SephStorm]

post #3 Post #5 and every post from 5-16. Non e of them at least with a quick glance are talking about the Rapid7-Metaspoloit aqqucsition.

My posts are not on topic obviously. In my last post however was in response to a moderators question.

I think it is obvious that the use of that statement was not in reference to raising anyone, but simply pointing out the fact that most humans are raised to ask questions, which from my reading of the posts here, and not having seen the posts being mentioned, I had to assume they were talking about new members who are asking questions they could usually lookup. Quite understandable. I don't claim that I don't feel it myself sometimes. However, one of the first things I learned as a proffessional, was (basicly) how to deal with people who don't know what to do, they will simply ask how to do something, because it is what they are designed to do.

Lupin, Without seeing these posts, I cant comment on the specific set of circumstances. However, What I would do, is to simply answer any appropriate questions, that are within the rules of this forum. let them know where they can find the information, how they can search for it, this will hopefully teach them the skills they will need in the future. In the past, not nessasarily here, though its possible, I have seen people who would basicly say "google it" and lock the thread. The user gains nothing that way, they can't ask questions, and they will more than likely not return to the board, even when they have learned there way.

That last part is my point in referencing the people who might be the next mitnick. When we treat people harshly, we have an effect on them. I recognise that had I simply chosen to go about things differently, I could be one of them. Or I could be on the other side, destroying peoples lives and data. Fact is, that kid, who asks how to break into his neighbors wifi is wrong. fact. Doesn't mean we have nothing to teach him. By showing him a different way, we may be able to mold his future. We may be able to change the course of his life. By taking the time to explain why he shouldn't do it, and showing an interest in him, maybe he tells us, "Hey I saw this movie and I thought it was cool." "Well, it is cool, let me show you how to do it without going to jail."

[lupin]

Originally Posted by SephStorm

I find it very annoying when I am trying to learn something, like when I came to this thread looking to find out about something I had no idea had happened, and I still know very little about it, because in part, I had to read a page full of those posts.

How long did it take you to read those posts exactly? And if you wanted to learn about this issue why didn't you do what I did when I saw this thread, which was to Google the subject and read some of the articles? Don't tell me you are relying only on this forum for all of your information?

Originally Posted by SephStorm

Im all for keeping the board professional, but I would rather discuss those things in there own threads.
.....
Wouldn't you prefer those discussions to be in their own threads?

The subject came up in conversation, so this is where we discussed it, and it certainly grew beyond what Id anticipated so at the time it started I didn't think it was necessary to move the discussion because I didn't expect that many responses, and by the time it had been going for a while there was too much to move.

Originally Posted by SephStorm

I find it funny how we are raised to ask questions, told there is no such thing as a stupid question, and then in this industry, ridiculed when we do. Just saying.

I actually think there is such a thing as a stupid question, but stupid or not stupid is not the issue here. The issue is more whether the person asking the question is lazy and expects someone else to do all of the leg work for them, even when the same issue has already come up multiple times before and can be found at the end of a simple search. The issue is also whether they have the proper mindset to actually do the kind of work that BackTrack was designed for, which requires initiative and the ability to think for ones self and take in active role in solving your own problems.

[Gitsnik]

Originally Posted by SephStorm

That last part is my point in referencing the people who might be the next mitnick. When we treat people harshly, we have an effect on them. I recognise that had I simply chosen to go about things differently, I could be one of them.

There are a few people around (including a couple of unnamed's on this forum) who would disagree with you strongly - because that is exactly how I have treated them, and now they have learned more, understand how to think, and don't ask ridiculous questions. Sure, my training methods are different to a teachers - I bet most teachers don't get called a bastard by people who have just met them, but I get results.

I am reminded of some research I saw recently: An optimist needs to be told it'll be ok, it's easy, you can do it. A pessimist needs to be told how impossible it is, how hard it is going to be. One suspects that the majority of good pentesters ( a group which I can only strive to be in ) are all pessimists - it seems to be a part of figuring out what to exploit and where.

By the way, whilst I am sure lupin and others could answer questions, somehow I think the call for "ch3ap \/i@gr@" should continue to go unheard. They do a phenomenal job of keeping these forums clean.

And yes, we have derailed this thread from the original topic, but ultimately the original topic was more of a news item than it was a "discuss", even with the question tacked onto the bottom.

[SephStorm]

Originally Posted by lupin

How long did it take you to read those posts exactly? And if you wanted to learn about this issue why didn't you do what I did when I saw this thread, which was to Google the subject and read some of the articles? Don't tell me you are relying only on this forum for all of your information?

I read all the posts that were on the first page when it was a two page thread. What then is the purpose of having a thread if not for discussion of the topic? Generally when I see a news story or anything else I am interested in, I'll read the article (or thread), and then if necessary, look for more information. In this case, it was the same way, except I felt the need to comment on the content of the thread whereas I will generally just have moved on.

The subject came up in conversation, so this is where we discussed it, and it certainly grew beyond what Id anticipated so at the time it started I didn't think it was necessary to move the discussion because I didn't expect that many responses, and by the time it had been going for a while there was too much to move.

I understand, I defiantly don't expect the moderation team to move every discussion when it gets off topic. I believe this topic as it stands is doing well, good people discussing things in a professional manner. Ideally it should be a separate topic, but that is not my area of expertise, I am not a mod here.

I actually think there is such a thing as a stupid question, but stupid or not stupid is not the issue here. The issue is more whether the person asking the question is lazy and expects someone else to do all of the leg work for them, even when the same issue has already come up multiple times before and can be found at the end of a simple search. The issue is also whether they have the proper mindset to actually do the kind of work that BackTrack was designed for, which requires initiative and the ability to think for ones self and take in active role in solving your own problems.

I feel sometimes as though we jump to that conclusion, that someone is too lazy to do there own research. In my opinion, I am probably less like many of you all in many respects. I am younger, have way less experience in the industry, and in the field. I can see where your concern lies, and thats good. But, I would urge you to consider all possibilities when coming upon one of these individuals. Obviously you can't be expected to take the time to deeply inspect every topic by a new poster and examine it from all angles, however, If I came upon one of these threads, I would not assume a person was lazy. I don't know the person, I don't know their time constraints, their knowledge level, or anything else that could aid me in that.

Lets consider this example, a fairly common one. Someone comes to the forum, or on IRC, ect. "Teach me how to hack."

I can hear some of you clicking the kick-ban button now. See that? Who does that benefit? No one. I have literally seen it printed that this is a bad question to ask. I understand why. But putting yourself in the shoes of someone who really is starting out, that is the first question that should be asked. "How do I hack?"

Me, I would probably laugh, but then I would ask him some questions, find out why he wants to learn, what he's interested in. Then I would guide him as best I could, on starting the path.

Lets look at my own history. This was my first post: PDF PW removal

I looked around the forums, after reading numerous posts about searching the fourms. I probably searched PDF passwords removal or something along those lines. That may not have been the best way to search, but its what Im looking for, its what I know to search.

My question was one of questionable ethics. I certainly felt I was justified, however members saw differently.

Streaker replied first, in a way that let me know I wasn't just going to be given the answer, but wasn't really GTFO. I feel lucky on that end. I feel that is an appropriate response.

In my opinion, our field isn't one in which people are often shown the path, you have to find it for yourself. Thats all great and good, but there are some who learn better when shown the way. It doesn't make you weaker, it just makes someone smarter.

Originally Posted by SephStorm

Fact is, that kid, who asks how to break into his neighbors wifi is wrong. fact. Doesn't mean we have nothing to teach him. By showing him a different way, we may be able to mold his future. We may be able to change the course of his life.

Interesting point of view. You get easily annoyed by a thread going off topic, but on the other hand, you do understand lazyness and stupidity and even believe we should coach them (and give them a big kiss), otherwise they could end up doing evil things.

Well while I do take your point, I honestly don't give a damn about their -or your- feelings. I'm not here to coach, teach or show the light to anyone, I'll do my best to help those who show real interest and do their homework.

I'll show respect to those who respect both themselves and other members time and, as I said before, I do appreciate smart comments, education and knowledge (or the effort to obtain it) .

Their future hat color is none of my business.

Edit. Answer to your #1 post

# apt-get install pdfcrack
# pdfcrack file.pdf -n 6 -c abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvxyz -s

[pureh@te]

I find it funny how we are raised to ask questions, told there is no such thing as a stupid question, and then in this industry, ridiculed when we do. Just saying.

There may be no stupid questions but there can be a lot of inquisitive idiots.

Looks like I need to step in here. I will under no circumstances tolerate someone arguing or challenging the authority of my moderators. I'm not saying that's exactly whats happening here, however, I want it to be REALLY clear.

Now the problem with this thread is that we are sort of airing the forums internal dirty laundry. Moderators should not be wasting their time defending their actions, when there are plenty of other things to do. If anyone has a problem with they way they are being treated or the way someone else is being treated then feel free to email Balding_Parrot or I. I can promise you the issue will be resolved quickly. I can not however guarantee you will like the result but that's the way it is.

I feel like I need to say this every couple of months so here it is again. The forum is not a democracy and it never will be. We are however open to suggestions. Many of the long time members here can tell you that I have taken their advice very seriously on many occasions and many times acted on it because it made sense. That being said those type of suggestions come in the form of IM,irc,PM or Email. We do not need to let the whole world know that we are having some issue around here that has nothing to do with backtrack.

[lupin]

Originally Posted by SephStorm

However, one of the first things I learned as a proffessional, was (basicly) how to deal with people who don't know what to do, they will simply ask how to do something, because it is what they are designed to do.

I have spent time answering phones on a HelpDesk during my career and dealt with many issues with people just asking questions without a problem. These people just wanted to use a computer to get their job done and didn't want to learn about how it worked - and that's perfectly fine.

I see this forum very differently than a HelpDesk though- BackTrack and the practice of Penetration Testing requires its users to be computer literate and to care about how things work. It requires them to be able to think and research for themselves. Handholding actually holds people back from this, and I can speak from personal experience on this, because I only started to really grow as a professional when I was put into a position where no one was able to help me on a particularly difficult problem and I had to solve it for myself.

Originally Posted by SephStorm

Lupin, Without seeing these posts, I cant comment on the specific set of circumstances. However, What I would do, is to simply answer any appropriate questions, that are within the rules of this forum. let them know where they can find the information, how they can search for it, this will hopefully teach them the skills they will need in the future.

I think that's a nice thought, but in reality it takes an absolutely enormous amount of effort to teach some people if they are not already at the point where they are ready to do the work for themselves. Even nudging someone who is just at the precipice is quite a task. "Teaching a man to fish", lets call it.

Lets look at case in point shall we?
Cannot start wicd network manager. or enable my WLAN card....

This eventually turned out well, but I basically had to write the abridged version of War and Peace over multiple posts before it was done. This user is definitely better off, but there are dozens more in line behind him, responding to each one in this manner would require me giving up on luxuries like sleeping and eating. Plus, not all of the posters I have tried to help in this way have responded so well.

I have been very influenced by this document by ESR, which in my mind gives a great perspective on how a "hackers" mind should work, and how spending time answering poor questions may be fruitless. While Im still not advocating that we be rude or harsh to these new members, Im not really inclined to give the particularly egregious examples much more than a quick "Search the forums and Google" response.

In the interest of being a better person however, I'll make you a deal. If you can spend two months responding to a majority of new posts in the forum and you do so as per your own suggested method, and your opinion doesn't change, then I'll agree your method is sustainable long term and follow your lead.